Need to take down abysmal posts from the main site

Question

I am not active on Hinduism much, but lately, a couple of my friends from here shared a few posts with me from here, which I feel are ridiculous to be even posted in public.

Rather than answering such questions, these needs to be closed/deleted, reported and the user needs to be warned for the same. If the posts are posted by the same user again related to such topics, then some strict action should be taken (i.e, banning the user from Hinduism).

Questions should be neglected from the website which promotes:

• Rape and related questions
• Disrespecting other religions
• Spreading fake preachings
• Child & Women abuse
• Racism

Some examples of such questions:

• What is Hinduism's view of marital rape?
• If karma is real then is rape justified?
• Does SB 4.25.41 give a hint to the thing that women like men who are expert in rape?
• What is Hinduism's view on Punishment and Prevention for Childhood Sexual Abuse?
• Does a wife who disobeys her husband be really torn to death by dogs? What is the context in which this verse is stated?
• Is it a sin for promiscuous, unmarried women to have sex with many men?
• Under which circumstances physical punishment to wife is allowed?

Now am not saying that the above might incite or encourage people from doing so but in general, these questions are controversial, and moreover, incite bad behaviour in people and hence, they are better ignored.

Answer 1

Two fold Solution to the Problem

In case of less time, ignore this paragraph: It can be observed that off late instead of questions about scriptures and spirituality, the balance has tilted to the side of questions with “different” content which necessitates this discussion. Some users may find certain content offensive while others may find it completely normal. For example some find doubting the credibility against white gurus offensive, some find cow slaughter offensive (like me), some are averse to the idea of homosexuality, some may endorse violence (to maintain dharma) whereas for others, such topics maybe completely alright to discuss. Further as the website is not restricted to a single country but is accessible worldwide, closing a question on the basis of legality will also be a subjective matter. For example some countries may allow polygamy whereas others may look down upon it. It maybe offensive to some it may not be offensive to some. For most (including me) rape is a heinous crime but for some like the OP seeking clarification for the victim deserving it in of the the questions above (not OP of meta post) it may or may not be. Some questions maybe destroying the very spiritual essence of Sanatana Dharma. Another example (in the current scenario a trivial issue yet in the future maybe out of proportion) is probably in future giving donations to Brahmins as per scriptures maybe considered illegal (I don’t endorse such a grossly incorrect view) or may offend some (we’d rather give to an old age home or say giving donation to Brahmins incites caste based discrimination. People can twist things in any manner, etc.). (Note Brahmins’ donation and the heinous crime of rape in my opinion are in no way comparable, please see the solution below before erupting)

The gist of the above paragraph is that based on mere legality (subjective per country) or the offensive (subjective per person) nature of questions, taking authoritative action may eventually lead to a clash of views and consequently unhealthy disputes.

Yet, despite the varied views, there seems to be a consensus in the community about the fact that certain posts are out of place. We must remember that the fundamentals of this Hinduism (and consequently this site), inter alia, are primarily based on Scriptures and spirituality. Hinduism is all about being a good and pure person and the religion itself does not in anyway endorse crimes (certain scriptures may contain controversial passages but ascertaining some of them as interpolations or not is a separate matter, we must focus on the spiritual aspect here). This religion, and so also a truly spiritual person, is about refraining from committing any unnecessary violence (अहिंसा परमो धर्मः), focusing on the betterment of all (वसुधैव कुटुम्बकम्) and engaging in obtaining the 4 fruits of dharma artha Kama and if possible, moksha.

Note- We cannot limit someone from asking questions to which answers are found in scriptures, whether they are not agreeable to some (eg. hitting of student by teacher). Therefore I have proposed a two fold solution below. For applying the solution, keep in mind the language and actual intent (not one we feel is plausible) of the question is to be given prime importance. A question which merely asks the view of Hinduism on something must be allowed (and the solution for the same is as per solution 2 in the two fold solution). A question which seeks justification for crimes is to be deleted with immediate effect. Also note justification clearly comes under opinion based/ personal advice.

Accordingly, while upholding the essence of Hinduism (and without disrespecting even the interpolated scriptural content) , the site rules, considering and duly respecting the fact that certain posts maybe offensive and yet without delving into the legality or offensive nature (owing to subjectivity) of the contents I propose a two-fold solution (part of which also has been proposed by others) for which the criteria has been outlined below and a step by step solution has also been illustrated :

I. Two fold solution:

1. Closing/ deleting/ downvoting questions

A. Closing the Question (this solution upholds site rules) - The criteria to close are already pretty exhaustive and a few of the “offensive” posts cited above do fit the criteria:

• If karma is real then is rape justified? - asking fir justification, this will clearly result in the answer being opinion based and must be closed as such
  
• Can we trust white gurus? Do they have any credibility? - this too is clearly opinion based as scriptures do not talk of coloured gurus.

B. Deleting the Question- (This solution helps curb denigrating the essence of Hinduism by seeking justification for wrongful acts) For deleting the Question, the following criteria must be met:-
“questions and answers that aim to clearly justify any act good or wrongful (the victim deserved it and other forms of victim blaming), aim to seek approval for any wrongful acts (Can I do this?) must be deleted, whether or not being closed based on one of the already existing criteria.

For the purposes above, the definition of wrongful (as mentioned by the OP) is as follows: a) relating to emotional, physical (including sexual) violence of any sort, towards any creature, barring wars which have scriptural reference b) causing discrimination based on gender, colour, caste, age, nationality”

C. Downvoting the Question
(This helps respect and uphold each persons views in the community and doesn’t steal the right to hold their views)
If a question/answer doesn’t fit in any of the closing or deleting criteria, and the user still feels that it is offensive, the user is free to express his views by downvoting the post and at the same time commenting his reason for downvoting. out of courtesy. A healthy discussion between the poster and voter may ensue later. I don’t see any downvote except mine on the karma rape justification question.

2. Disclaimer Banner

(This solution ensures that while quoting from scriptures, though parts of which are interpolated, the content of some scriptures too are respected, yet certain acts are not endorsed by the community)
Similar to a citation banner I propose the introduction of a banner called the disclaimer banner which reads:
“Neither does the community nor the religion support/ endorse/ recommend any kind of mental, physical violence, discrimination based on gender, colour, caste, age, nationality and resorting to the same is not recommended”

This solution will entail having a healthy discussion on the topic and yet by this way the intention of a person reading any controversial answers may be less likely to be influenced to perform such acts and it also shows meaningful non-endorsement of the community of commonly unaccepted deeds.

When to use the Disclaimer banner?
As explained below in the step by step guide, this banner is to be used in the event of questions obtaining a general view of wrongful acts, that could not be deleted (whether or not they were closed but may have answers and those answers must still have the banner) because they didn’t meet the criteria (closing criteria or they don’t seek justification/ victim blaming and hence can’t be deleted) and hence yet have “offensive content” Wrongful acts as stated in the above paragraph again means:

“relating to emotional, physical (including sexual) violence of any sort, towards any creature, barring wars which have scriptural reference b) causing discrimination based on gender, colour, caste, age, nationality”

Examples of questions/ answers where this banner can be used:

• What is Hinduism’s view of marital rape and Hinduism’s view on punishment and prevention of childhood sexual abuse- for both, the question is not seeking justification, it is obtaining a general view but yet being concerned with wrongful act in the nature of sexual violence answers to this question must have the disclaimer banner to prevent anyone’s mind from going in that direction as well as upholding ethics
• Under which circumstances physical punishment to wife is allowed?, Does a wife who disobeys her husband be really torn to death by dogs? What is the context in which this verse is stated - this being related (not seeking justification for) to physical violence as well as gender discrimination, a wrongful act, deserves the disclaimer banner.
• Similarly for caste based questions like: Are Varna and Caste same or different?, and How can a Brahmin become a shudra in this birth right here and now

Note: Where an answer does not quote from a scripture and is of such “wrongful” type then it must be flagged for deletion (not even citation or disclaimer banner) as it is of a very sensitive topic. Such a user must only comment. Eg. The answer provided to If karma is real then is rape justified?

II. Step by Step guide to deal with offensive questions and applying the aforementioned two fold solution

Step 1: check whether the “offensive” question only (not answer) meets any of the criteria to be closed and exercise close vote.
Step 2: check if the “offensive” question or answer justifies/ seeks approval for wrongful acts, if yes, flag for moderator invention with the words - ‘wrongful justification please delete’
Step 3: if step 2 fails i.e. offensive question doesn’t meet the deletion criteria, then it is subjectively offensive and hence the user is free to exercise their downvote
Step 4: If the Q/A does not get deleted, monitor any answers on the question. When a user answers a question fitting the criteria mentioned in solution 2, then he himself must flag the answer for the banner, or another user seeing the answer must flag it for banner wit the words - “disclaimer banner required”. Though the answer will answers from scriptures it would not support or encourage any wrongful acts.

Let’s apply the steps to the following questions:

a) If karma is real then is rape justified? - so we see if it can be closed as per Step 1: yes as opinion based
Deleted as per Step 2: yes
no need to go to step 3

b) Under which circumstances physical punishment to wife is allowed?, Does a wife who disobeys her husband be really torn to death by dogs? What is the context in which this verse is stated

Step 1: cannot be closed as it is not opinion based etc.
Step 2: cannot be deleted as it doesn’t seek justification
Step 3: if yet offensive please use your right downvote
Step 4: is it concerned with wrongful act? Yes. Therefore flag Q/A for disclaimer banner.

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Hope this two fold solution is agreeable to the unified community/ the factions If any/ in at least a majority. anyone wishes, please propose changes to better the solution and the disclaimer banner can be discussed in detail on a separate meta post.

Answer 2

You say:

Questions should be neglected from the website which promotes Rape and related questions Disrespecting other religions Spreading fake preachings Child & Women abuse Racism

Asking a question about something is not the same thing as promoting it.

If I ask the question "Is killing a cow a major sin in Hinduism? would you accuse me of "promoting killing of cows"?

I understand that objectionable content has to be removed but show me the questions from your list that are actually "promoting rape" etc.

I don't think if any post was really promoting rape or something similar it would require a meta post to get it deleted. Users can flag and get it deleted within no time.

Answer 3

I agree with Mr. Alien. As a community, we discussed this before but looks like it was ignored by some comunity members. I request community members not to encourage posts that are decided as off-topic already. If needed, please have a meta-discussion before moving forward.

Now, I will try to explain why I agree with Mr.Alien, in my perspective:

First of all, none of us here hold any ill intention - in asking, answering, or commenting on such posts. I understand, as a community, we are just trying to discuss and take info from the available Hindu documents & understandings as much as possible. I respect and appreciate that.

But, this is a request that as we are in beta, we can define the scope properly and better. So, our content will be richer with what exactly Hinduism stands for and how it can be used by young people who are visiting this site in the 100's every day. To make such richer content, we should bound with ethics. Whatever we are sharing, discussing here now will shape the future readers of this site. We don't know how the readers will take our content - as granted, will misunderstand, will find it offensive. Either way, as a community, it is our responsibility to avoid such misunderstandings as much as possible.

So, I suggest - Our content should bound with ethics and legality, in coordination with SE guidelines and CoC.

To explain this more, if a question is about something ethically wrong (or illegal), then the possible answers will be neutral or legally wrong, legally right. Now, we don't know which answer the future reader will grasp. If they grasp an illegal answer it could lead to unfortunate events in real life. We possibly should not be part of or indirectly responsible for such events. So, we should not encourage or endorse in any way. We should stay away from it. All I am requesting is to keep ethically wrong posts out of scope.

If an expert thinks they can beautifully handle this, think again, you won't be the single person to answer such posts. Better to step back and close it. Please be ethically reasonable and responsible.

If OP asks questions like:

• "What is the punishment for hit and run?"
• "Doing Japa standing in the middle of the highway where the planets align"

Don't answer. Just close it! and flag if it offends you

As a human, we follow humanity guidelines first, then nation guidelines and then religion guidelines. And as a community member, we should first follow ethics, then SE guidelines, and then discuss Hinduism in that scope. Going reverse will create a nuisance in the formed society/community.

Answer 4

I am beginning to realize why our sages insisted on sticking to oral traditions as compared to writing it down. If not mistaken there was prohibition on Vedas being written. Anyways.

It is disheartening to see old timers who are well versed with scriptures getting themselves entangled into what will be acceptable and what is not acceptable to site visitors , HSE community etc. Moreover the notion that answers straight from scriptures may incite bad behaviour is stretching it a bit too much.

Let's take the example of hitting women with grass being permissible with scriptures that is being discussed in comments.

Is it illegal today ? Yes.

Does it mean that our ancients were incorrect to follow it ? Ofcourse not. And not because times were different. They were not wrong because correcting wives in this manner was sanctioned in the dharmashastras.

Does it mean scriptures were promoting bad behaviour? Not at all. Husband , assuming that he has not lost right to hit because of his other transgressions, is carrying out his duty. And failure to do so means he will incur bad karma. Moreover wife will incur bad karma for not correcting her behaviour.

So should I hit wife with grass if I want to abide by scriptures? No. It is illegal act.

But I don't want to incur bad karma . What to do ? If state has enacted laws that are against dharmashastras then karma doctrine says that bad karma will be borne by state ( in a democracy this would be - those who have been voted to power and those who have voted such people to power).

Now what's the issue when we try to nuke such questions. The biggest problem is that genuine seekers of knowledge will end up gobbling information from not so reputed sites , and they usually are of two forms

• Hinduism promotes violence towards women
• Scriptures contain information that belonged to a different era, and require updation

Both are absolutely wrong. But I guess some in here feel they are doing Hinduism a great service by nuking such questions from this site.

Answer 5

I am really glad to see that the community resolved this issue on its own. Well done! I would like to echo a bit what others said and add a few more comments.

I agree with Mr_Green’s answer. As a company we ask users two things:

• Follow the Q&A format. Hinduism Stack Exchange is not a discussion club:

  You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Chatty, open-ended questions diminish the usefulness of our site and push other questions off the front page.

  Even philosophical questions should be applied and answerable. Questions asking for justification of an action or seeking for opinions do not seem being on-topic on a SE site.

• Adhere to the Сode of Conduct. The CoC is the same for all network sites. We do care about our users’ feelings. There are a lot of tricky areas where things can get easily and fast go south. If one is not sure about the outcome of a question, we recommend avoiding posting it.

Archit proposed an interesting way to handle this situation. Stack Exchange can help the community with implementing the plan. We can enable a “controversial post” notice feature on Hinduism SE. The “controversial post” notice is a special box at the top of a question that alarms the reader. We can add almost any text to the box. Only moderators can add this box to a question. Here is an example on IPS

If Hinduism SE wants to have this feature on, you need to get a community consensus on having this feature and the text in the box. I think the first good step would be holding a meta discussion about it.

Answer 6

Now am not saying that the above might incite or encourage people from doing so but in general, these questions are controversial, and moreover, incite bad behaviour in people and hence, they are better ignored.

This is a self-contradictory statement. So which one do you think it is? If you don't think these posts encourage people to commit those acts, then why can't you just ignore these posts and move on? Do you want to censor these posts simply because you don't like them?

If you think otherwise, can you show me proof of a scholarly discussion/debate on a sensitive topic that has incited people to commit illegal acts?

A similar thing came up on Islam Meta SE on the topic of homosexuality and this is what they decided:

Should we be preventing anti-gay material?

An outright ban would be opening a box of worms because of this point you mentioned: "Islam itself contains anti-gay content." Islam contains so much that will be reprehensible to most Non-Muslims (and even many people who think they are Muslims), you'd have to censor out a lot of orthodox doctrine. Take half the criminal law parts of sharia, and you'd have to censor them based on what "be nice" lists.

My take on it is this: it has to be possible to describe Islamic doctrine exactly as it is as well as the scholarly arguments that underpin it. Endorsing the offensive parts (or apologist talk about them) however should not be tolerated.

I suggest we adopt the same policy here. Since this is a site about Hinduism, scholarly discussions about even sensitive topics should be allowed. If OP is looking for answers that justify certain actions, which are illegal in most countries, then the question can be rephrased to remove such bias or be closed/deleted if cannot be salvaged. E.g., questions like Vedas and Vedic dharma on homosexuality should be allowed but racist questions like Can we trust white gurus? Do they have any credibility? and comments like "no hate for Homosexuals but for Homosexuality" that endorse homophobia should be flagged and deleted.

Answer 7

... which I feel are ridiculous to be even posted in public.

Ridiculousness of something is subjective. When we ain't done with objective truths, bringing a subjective reason in a discussion won't serve any purpose.

Rather than answering such questions, these needs to be closed/deleted, reported and the user needs to be warned for the same.

Why? Where is the reason? Is ridiculousness the reason (against which a point has already been made prior to this quote)? or the reason includes in the main question itself as follows-

Now am not saying that the above might incite or encourage people from doing so but in general, these questions are controversial, and moreover, incite bad behavior in people and hence, they are better ignored.

Okay, so reasons you have cited are (followed by rhetoric references of questions) -

1. These questions are controversial.
2. Incite bad behavior in people.

Let me deal the reasons individually,

1. These questions are controversial.

How controversial? What's controversial is again subjective. When we ain't concluded with objective truths, then bringing subjective reason in a discussion won't serve any purpose. Moreover, even if they turn out to be controversial by a hypothetical universally agreed upon definition of controversy, I am not sure if controversial questions are to be banned here?

2. Incite bad behavior in people.

Inciting bad behavior is more or less same as your following statement or at most its implication.

Now am not saying that the above might incite or encourage people from doing so...

So, you are contradicting your own statement leaving you with giving us only a single reason of banning these questions on the ground of them being controversial. Basically, you are calling for censorship of questions because either you couldn't argue with your friends about their criteria of ridiculousness or because you find them controversial (which is subjective). The conditioning of your friends followed by your mishandling with them philosophically ought not to become a reason to censor any philosophical questions, however abhorrent they may be, here.

At most we can ask them to water down their wordings or tones, but upright banning would be actually mishandling from our part. As long as you don't face the question the question will continue to lurk without any answer. Either downvote or an appropriate answer should be enough to handle these questions.

If Hinduism has truth, then it must have answers of all the questions, however they might sound abhorrent apparently.

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Mere Yoga or ways to Moksha isn't Hinduism. Hinduism surrounds around Dharma, Artha, Kaama & Moksha. Dharma is given no less (if no more) importance than Moksha as Vishnu incarnates for sake of Dharma only, not Moksha as goes by the dictum yada yada hi dharmasya... instead of yada yada hi mokshasya. So, when Dharma is equally important than Moksha then any question basically dealing with Dharma ought not be reproached to the level of upright ban. Dharma comprises of constitution of state, morality & duties of individuals with their do's & don'ts, etc. Questions surrounding them oughtn't be banned however obsolete or abhorrent they may be.